Wingman Killer Teams

[bustr]

Tonight I flew as Sol's wingman. I told him what my role was and what to expect from me. I brought him through 3 sortes with kills and I claimed kills also. He followed my directrions and survived, except in 2 other sorte where he flew into ack. I cannot save my leadman if he does that.

I can teach others to fly wing killer teams and survive in the DA. I will need 9 pigs to form up in the DA and follow my instructions to prove this. Three of them will be the enemy. I will need Sol as my wing leader to teach the lesson.

A wing leader and wingman can perform a manuver called the BuzzSaw. No con will survive it if the instructions are followed exactly.

I expect Sol to add to this thread backing up everything I'm saying because he participated in the buzzsaw manuver.

[usvi]

Sounds good,I'm in.
Let me know when,hopefully I can attend:pig: :salute:

[P1gPen]

I'm really interested in this. I REALLY believe that if we flew with more team-based tactics, we'd be unstoppable. Teach me, oh master!

[JunkyII]

Tonight me and BillyDee (he got new name and im back to JunkyII:D ) were flying together a landed 7 scapls together him with 4 me with 3. We really never faced any real threat becuse if the con was close to our sixs the other guy just cme over the top and made him break, then the guy who was in trouble can reverse back and take a shot too.

[bustr]

The biggest mistake in this game that happens to killer teams is the wingman sees an easy kill and breaks off for it. You very rarely get formed back up after that unless the flight lead changes himself to wingman.

A wingman is there to focus on everything the wingleader does not need to in the quest to kill cons. Wingleader also needs only to communicate his target(s) and engage. The wingmans job is to communicate threats or the lack of so the leader can free his mind to focus on the con.

When the lead dives or climbs to engage the wingman lags a bit to be bait for any late interlopers. By lagging the wingman increases the fire power to be brought against the con by 2X because your delay will have you at the con as the con is looseing E from his evasion of your wingleader. You take ONLY a snap shot and never follow the con if you miss. You real job is hitting wep and following your wingleader to cover his 6.

Cons attacking the wingman are now roped by the wingman as bait for a reversal by the wingleader.

The wingman also has the job of determining when he has to notify his lead that he will be braking away to distract a close con who will be able to get between you and your wing leader. This is a sacrafice move which hopefully your wing lead can reverse back and help you kill the con.

Wingmans job "1" is keeping his Wingleader alive, NOT getting kills. In the process of protecting the wing leads tail kills will happen as you pick up his wounded or missed cons.

I will talk about methods to deal with a higher con or cons later.

[zzee]

This is the one area I think that minor improvements will lead to MAJOR results. I often wing with people (yes, sometimes non-pigs, forgive me) and this the single greatest threat to a group of enemy.

Pigs would really benefit from a good lesson in this.

oinks,

zzee

[bustr]

Here is the numero UNO rule to flying 2 man tactics.

DECIDE AT THE ONSET WHO THE WINGMAN AND WHO THE SHOOTER IS. THE WINGMANS ONLY JOB IS TO FOLLOW AND SUPPORT THE SHOOTER.

I have watched all of the Pigs long enough to know each of you can fly as the shooter. In the past I've watched the wingmen leave the shooters to pick up an easy lower kill. Then watched both get whacked.

The wingmans job is to cover the shooters tail and rope cons for the shooter to reverse on. The wingman picks up kills by lagging the shooters attacks and finishing the missed or damaged con as a snap shot and wepping back up to the shooter.

[SlowShot]

Tonight Bugs and I were flying as wingmen, he is much better at it than me. I would get in trouble chasing people down and he would get atleast a kill if not all the way up to 4 I think he had at one point. He would just stay 1-1.5k behind me so that when people came in behind me he would be in perfect shooting position. I tried to wing him but either stalled trying to stay with him(Hurr) me (190D-9). Then I tried getting in a Hurricane with him, I left him a couple times trying to help somebody else which was stupid and I shouldn't have. All in all I would fly with Bugs anyday he is a really good guy and tries to help out everytime I did something dumb. <S> Bugs

[P1gPen]

I think maybe I'll ask Bustr to ride along with him (or him, me) so that I can see how it's done. I wouldn't've originally thought that a wingman would be so far behind the wingleader as SlowShot has said.

And whenever I've tried to fly wingman, I usually end up just watching behind but not knowing what to do when we get someone on our six.

[Buzzard7]

Wingman and shooter positions can be switched as the fight dictates. This would be the decision of the element lead.

[Bosch232]

I'm really interested in this. I REALLY believe that if we flew with more team-based tactics, we'd be unstoppable. Teach me, oh master!


I absolutely, positively, 110% endorse this.

I've only been involved with one other flight sim before AH, which was Red Baron 3D, back about 10 years ago during the 56k modem days.
It was a much more "international" squad, for whatever reason.
Pilots from all over the world, with many Euro guys, one Canadian, and a handful of Kiwis and Aussies.

All we had was text chat back then, no voice.
But I have to tell you all that the tactics and coordination we used back then definitely exceeded what we do here as Pigs.

I would really like to see this philosophy adopted in this squad. :cool:

[bustr]

I think maybe I'll ask Bustr to ride along with him (or him, me) so that I can see how it's done. I wouldn't've originally thought that a wingman would be so far behind the wingleader as SlowShot has said.

And whenever I've tried to fly wingman, I usually end up just watching behind but not knowing what to do when we get someone on our six.

Pig,

The night you flew wing with me you tryed to follow me in a straight line everytime I dove to pick a con. Thats why you were out of sync to pick them off as you LAGGED me. They had out turned both of us because you mirrored my dive vector.

What you needed to do was dive behind and BELOW me as a LAGGED timing.

Where I was at a steaper angle you would be scooping just a tiny bit back and below. That way you come in on the con at a shallower angle then mine, snap shoot and are already hitting WEP to zoom back up my tail. This LAGGED timing also keeps you above me for a few seconds to make that last scan for cons before you commit to the attack. By scooping back and a tiny bit below, we become a two tooth circular saw hitting the con with a one, two rythm before the con can react.

This is why you fly the same plane as wingmen, or two planes with very similare performance. You need to keep a mutual rythm so that an attacking con is in fact attacking two planes that are ONE without realising it.

Flying a HurriC matched with a FwD9 is called a bait and switch. The Hurri keeps the con turning with him while the D9 performs high YoYo's and Immelmans taking snap shots on each pass. This is how two P47's rescue each other when one gets low and slow or BOTH attacked at alt by a higher Poni or D9.

[Bugs]

Tonight Bugs and I were flying as wingmen, he is much better at it than me. I would get in trouble chasing people down and he would get atleast a kill if not all the way up to 4 I think he had at one point. He would just stay 1-1.5k behind me so that when people came in behind me he would be in perfect shooting position. I tried to wing him but either stalled trying to stay with him(Hurr) me (190D-9). Then I tried getting in a Hurricane with him, I left him a couple times trying to help somebody else which was stupid and I shouldn't have. All in all I would fly with Bugs anyday he is a really good guy and tries to help out everytime I did something dumb. <S> Bugs

I have no other experience with this. I read what Bustr and a couple others had posted here and tried to put what I remembered to use.

When Slow says I was staying back 1-1.5k I was also staying well above him. I was in a slow, nimble plane while he was in a faster, non-turning plane. I stayed above and watched him "boom and zoom" (i guess is what you call it). If I saw any red attempting to get on his 6 I then dove in and got the kill as they were totally concentrating on the tgt in front of them. Then I just climbed back out and started over. Once there were several bad guys behind him and every time I swept in for a kill then out and right back in.

My point is: This worked REALLY well and was a lot of fun. It was not hard and I'm sure we weren't even doing it the best way possable. Imagine how much more effective it would be to continue to practice and improve in this area!

[loonetik]

bustr are you still doing this?